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	<title>Comments on: Proton beam radiation: a systematic review</title>
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		<title>By: Herb Klein</title>
		<link>http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/2009/09/18/proton-beam-radiation-a-systematic-review/#comment-5991</link>
		<dc:creator>Herb Klein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/?p=6899#comment-5991</guid>
		<description>I won&#039;t go out of my way to defend them.  I don&#039;t really know the answer.  I&#039;m for openness and I deplore the fanaticism that I have seen on both sides of the issue.  Why, indeed, can&#039;t folks just share the facts and deal with the issues forthrightly?

Let&#039;s hope that with the involvement of more centers, the situation will improve.  It will take time in any case.  I still think that protons are promising.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I won&#8217;t go out of my way to defend them.  I don&#8217;t really know the answer.  I&#8217;m for openness and I deplore the fanaticism that I have seen on both sides of the issue.  Why, indeed, can&#8217;t folks just share the facts and deal with the issues forthrightly?</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s hope that with the involvement of more centers, the situation will improve.  It will take time in any case.  I still think that protons are promising.</p>
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		<title>By: Sitemaster</title>
		<link>http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/2009/09/18/proton-beam-radiation-a-systematic-review/#comment-5990</link>
		<dc:creator>Sitemaster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/?p=6899#comment-5990</guid>
		<description>Dear Herb:

I suppose the truth is that I &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;am&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt; angry with Loma Linda. Whether their excuse for not publishing a stream of really well documented data is laziness or whatever, as the only PBRT center in  the US for a decade after the old Harvard PBRT system shut down, they had a moral obligation to document and publish their data in a well organized manner. They published one paper of (IMHO) very dubious quality, which you link to, and I think they should be ashamed of this.

The result is still that we really don&#039;t have good, well-structured data on PBRT in treatment of prostate cancer, and we certainly have wasted the best part of 15 years as a consequence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Herb:</p>
<p>I suppose the truth is that I <strong><em>am</em></strong> angry with Loma Linda. Whether their excuse for not publishing a stream of really well documented data is laziness or whatever, as the only PBRT center in  the US for a decade after the old Harvard PBRT system shut down, they had a moral obligation to document and publish their data in a well organized manner. They published one paper of (IMHO) very dubious quality, which you link to, and I think they should be ashamed of this.</p>
<p>The result is still that we really don&#8217;t have good, well-structured data on PBRT in treatment of prostate cancer, and we certainly have wasted the best part of 15 years as a consequence.</p>
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		<title>By: Herb Klein</title>
		<link>http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/2009/09/18/proton-beam-radiation-a-systematic-review/#comment-5989</link>
		<dc:creator>Herb Klein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 17:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/?p=6899#comment-5989</guid>
		<description>Re proton beam therapy (PBT), &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.protoninfo.com/TenYearData/TenYearStudy.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here is the reference about the Loma Linda (LL) experience&lt;/a&gt;, including side effects exclusive of erectile dysfunction.

Patients received 74-75 grays (technically, grays or gray equivalents) to their prostates, as protons or protons + photons.  3.5 years ago, I got their standard dose, which had become 79.2 grays.  I declined to join an experimental group getting more.
	
LL patients currently get 79 to 81 grays, in 44 treatment sessions, the dose being determined on an individualized basis, probably affected by the riskiness of their disease.  Other centers have other formulas, and, for example, I heard that the Florida center also prescribes doses individually.  An experimental group at LL is currently getting  60 grays in 20 sessions, i.e., hypofractionation.
	
I deplore publicity for PBT that relies on anecdotal evidence.  You may be right in your suspicions, Mr. Sitemaster (we all need to be a bit skeptical), but I am inclined to a more generous assessment of LL.  The failure to publish more data may be due to inertia and the &quot;moving target&quot; character of this therapy.  (I&#039;m referring to the science, not prostate position changes; that&#039;s another story.)
	
One can perhaps infer that an honest sense of the advantages of proton beam therapy, based on less radiation outside the target area, has given PBT workers the confidence to change methodology, including, importantly, dose escalation to as much as 81 grays.  More grays may kill the cancer more definitively; one can only hope that they do not increase side effects proportionately.
	
I think that a key word for PBT for prostate cancer is &quot;promising.&quot;  As one iota of anecdotal evidence, I have personally done well after receiving PBT by a method that soon may be called crude.  It created a high radiation zone around my prostate with less radiation remote from it, but there have been problems precisely planting that high radiation zone where it belongs.  One or more U.S. centers are now implementing pencil beam scanning or spot scanning (synonyms), which ought to be an improvement.
	
&lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/y8tn7sx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;One investigator wrote (in a slide presentation)&lt;/a&gt;, &quot;Protons are good.  Whether the current state of the art is good enough is questionable.  But can be much better.  Achieving [what you see] = [what you get] is essential.  And is equivalent to going from faith-based PT to faithful PT.&quot; 				

Herb</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re proton beam therapy (PBT), <a href="http://www.protoninfo.com/TenYearData/TenYearStudy.pdf" rel="nofollow">here is the reference about the Loma Linda (LL) experience</a>, including side effects exclusive of erectile dysfunction.</p>
<p>Patients received 74-75 grays (technically, grays or gray equivalents) to their prostates, as protons or protons + photons.  3.5 years ago, I got their standard dose, which had become 79.2 grays.  I declined to join an experimental group getting more.</p>
<p>LL patients currently get 79 to 81 grays, in 44 treatment sessions, the dose being determined on an individualized basis, probably affected by the riskiness of their disease.  Other centers have other formulas, and, for example, I heard that the Florida center also prescribes doses individually.  An experimental group at LL is currently getting  60 grays in 20 sessions, i.e., hypofractionation.</p>
<p>I deplore publicity for PBT that relies on anecdotal evidence.  You may be right in your suspicions, Mr. Sitemaster (we all need to be a bit skeptical), but I am inclined to a more generous assessment of LL.  The failure to publish more data may be due to inertia and the &#8220;moving target&#8221; character of this therapy.  (I&#8217;m referring to the science, not prostate position changes; that&#8217;s another story.)</p>
<p>One can perhaps infer that an honest sense of the advantages of proton beam therapy, based on less radiation outside the target area, has given PBT workers the confidence to change methodology, including, importantly, dose escalation to as much as 81 grays.  More grays may kill the cancer more definitively; one can only hope that they do not increase side effects proportionately.</p>
<p>I think that a key word for PBT for prostate cancer is &#8220;promising.&#8221;  As one iota of anecdotal evidence, I have personally done well after receiving PBT by a method that soon may be called crude.  It created a high radiation zone around my prostate with less radiation remote from it, but there have been problems precisely planting that high radiation zone where it belongs.  One or more U.S. centers are now implementing pencil beam scanning or spot scanning (synonyms), which ought to be an improvement.</p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/y8tn7sx" rel="nofollow">One investigator wrote (in a slide presentation)</a>, &#8220;Protons are good.  Whether the current state of the art is good enough is questionable.  But can be much better.  Achieving [what you see] = [what you get] is essential.  And is equivalent to going from faith-based PT to faithful PT.&#8221; 				</p>
<p>Herb</p>
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		<title>By: Sitemaster</title>
		<link>http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/2009/09/18/proton-beam-radiation-a-systematic-review/#comment-5972</link>
		<dc:creator>Sitemaster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:26:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/?p=6899#comment-5972</guid>
		<description>My suspicion has long been that the Loma Linda data is actually of very poor quality and therefore not &quot;minable&quot; in any meaningful way. The only other possible reason for not mining it and publishing it would be that it doesn&#039;t actually support the claims that are made for the technique -- and I would &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;not &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;want to think that that was the case!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My suspicion has long been that the Loma Linda data is actually of very poor quality and therefore not &#8220;minable&#8221; in any meaningful way. The only other possible reason for not mining it and publishing it would be that it doesn&#8217;t actually support the claims that are made for the technique &#8212; and I would <strong><em>not </em></strong>want to think that that was the case!</p>
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		<title>By: Terry Herbert</title>
		<link>http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/2009/09/18/proton-beam-radiation-a-systematic-review/#comment-5968</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry Herbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 01:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/?p=6899#comment-5968</guid>
		<description>I know my memory is not what it was, but I don&#039;t recall seeing the original studies that demonstrated, prospectively, that photon beam radiation is a valuable form of treatment for localized prostate cancer. I know there are many retrospective studies, but they don&#039;t count do they -- else the Loma Linda data could be mined and some of the question marks raised be resolved.

But then that would be so simple and unscientific wouldn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know my memory is not what it was, but I don&#8217;t recall seeing the original studies that demonstrated, prospectively, that photon beam radiation is a valuable form of treatment for localized prostate cancer. I know there are many retrospective studies, but they don&#8217;t count do they &#8212; else the Loma Linda data could be mined and some of the question marks raised be resolved.</p>
<p>But then that would be so simple and unscientific wouldn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/2009/09/18/proton-beam-radiation-a-systematic-review/#comment-5967</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 01:18:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/?p=6899#comment-5967</guid>
		<description>As someone who is facing prostate cancer and having to make a decision about therapy, it is frustrating to read generalities about how much better proton therapy is with respect to side effects, yet see no statistical summary to demonstrate this.  This is the problem with the Loma Linda web site. It should have been a simple matter to collect data about major side effects such as incontinence and erectile dysfunction.  I agree with this article -- more needs to be done to demonstrate the effectiveness of proton therapy for prostate cancer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who is facing prostate cancer and having to make a decision about therapy, it is frustrating to read generalities about how much better proton therapy is with respect to side effects, yet see no statistical summary to demonstrate this.  This is the problem with the Loma Linda web site. It should have been a simple matter to collect data about major side effects such as incontinence and erectile dysfunction.  I agree with this article &#8212; more needs to be done to demonstrate the effectiveness of proton therapy for prostate cancer.</p>
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		<title>By: gerald chodak</title>
		<link>http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/2009/09/18/proton-beam-radiation-a-systematic-review/#comment-5941</link>
		<dc:creator>gerald chodak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 22:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/?p=6899#comment-5941</guid>
		<description>Good summation about this technology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good summation about this technology.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Z</title>
		<link>http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/2009/09/18/proton-beam-radiation-a-systematic-review/#comment-5940</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 11:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/?p=6899#comment-5940</guid>
		<description>You&#039;ve got to wonder why these studies weren&#039;t begun when the extremely expensive equipment PBRT requires was implemented for use. 

Given the costs, wouldn&#039;t it be incumbent on the proponents to show significant improvement over the older types of radiation therapy?

As positive on the proton as many prostate cancer patients seem to be, you just hope that it won&#039;t ultimately turn out to be a gizmo poster child for common cancers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve got to wonder why these studies weren&#8217;t begun when the extremely expensive equipment PBRT requires was implemented for use. </p>
<p>Given the costs, wouldn&#8217;t it be incumbent on the proponents to show significant improvement over the older types of radiation therapy?</p>
<p>As positive on the proton as many prostate cancer patients seem to be, you just hope that it won&#8217;t ultimately turn out to be a gizmo poster child for common cancers.</p>
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